Wow! Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community so long as you bow to him and stay on his good size. And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. People shift roles all the time (Mark has obviously been a persecutor a lot!). And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? In the future, people will tell churches and christians to distance themselves from the dishonesty of the dishonest churches. If so you may be onto something. Your California Privacy Rights / Privacy Policy. I said some decent things, but one can and probably ought to take that with a grain of salt. If not, why not? But forgiveness doesnt mean the church should open itself to his abuse again no need to return him to the pulpit since he wasnt a genuine minister to begin with; there was no evidence of the call of God on his life given his dismal run as a pastor. God knows that we dont need that sort of ministry again.. MD should never have been a pastor based on how much contempt he has for his fellow man. Another aspect of the way I approach this is to consider where the burden of proof lies. Have you noticed the more scandals from some thugs they actually become more popular? "It was clear to me that Mark's attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose of Hillsong Conference, which is to see people leave encouraged in their own spiritual journey.". There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. Or (referring to Joseph) how to achieve your dreams. As Lydia has wisely pointed out, cult survivors are all at different stages in their recovery. James River Church Online - James River TV I believe this is the 2 Thessalonians time period so it will become increasingly more difficult to avoid false teachers. It didnt occur to me because I havent seen that modeled in a very long time. Joplin Campus - Joplin, MO - James River Church Online God,I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire? What a waste of a ministry! Somebody cited a study that the most common characteristic of a Sociopath (well over 90%) was successfully Playing the Victim Card when caught. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . So many use Ches image as some sort of inspirational symbol. How can a reasonable person look past that? @ sam: According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. Its more the non-complementarian position to argue that women should be allowed to preach/lead based on gifting and that sounds like the argument Driscoll is raising in the quotes by him I placed in this post. I would hope we should higher standards than that. Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). They really believe that God has anointed the leaders to lead them. Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | Church It was really bad, disastrous I might even say. I respectfully dissent, Evangelical NIH director Francis Collins says 'most churches' should be remote until public is vaccinated. It is an issue of protecting other people. he smiles and there is love in his heart. But guess what else happened? i dont know what the answer is except to not get under the pastor leader concept ever. And equally astonishing is that other Christian leaders support his abusive style or at least overlook it. Doing well as opposed to what? I told him that. Driscoll should not be granted any level of power till he has demonstrated that he has obtained the humility necessary to handle it. But I never want to deliberately post any false information so I do appreciate any corrections you can add. "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm yelling at the referees for too many seasons. as to revenue streams, Jesus paid His taxes with money a fish popped up with. He spends the remainder of the sermon talking about Saul who became Paul and forgiveness. It is ok to ask for openess and transparancy. The name Che is a nickname, short for pig (chancho), for a reason. I couldnt get through Marks sermon.so what was coming up for me during Pastor Lindells introduction was the idea of the Karpman Drama Triangle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle (Persecutor/Rescuer/Victim roles that people bounce around in during unhealthy interactions.) The kid starts expecting it. he sees God. vinegar is disinfectant for wiping yourself. As Gram wrote above these are relationships (if you can call it that) built on trust. it is heartbreaking to have to help them get through the transfer of custody until the one can get through a treatment and be able to be around the child again. I read somewhere that the church that bought, I think, the main campus property has a female pastor. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. Clear All United States - All Cities kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. Maybe six months from now, therell be another terrible story, and well know that the BSd us. Hmmm, trust the Spirit, and let them be killed like Ananias and Sapphira? But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? I felt like an idiot after I said that. Church membership requires showing your W-2 and mandatory tithe no., Thats the crux of the message, isnt it? Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. There are now more single adults in the U.S.A. than married couples, but churches (even the mega ones) keep going after the married folks. In your mega travels Lydia, is this homogenization of bad practices the norm? Do any of you who oppose Driscoll preaching or running a church again, is there a way he could ever get forgiveness from yall to do that sort of ministry again? CCHD encourages individuals who were present at the high-capacity event over the weekend to monitor for symptoms of COVID-19 for 14-days from the event date and seek medical attention if symptoms develop., Church officials defended themselves in a statement issued to KYTV-KSPR, noting that despite what the images show, we take seriously the safety and health of those who attend our services.. James River Church | Christian Church - Springfield, MO Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. mode. HUG so aptly quotes GK Chesterton, and let me paraphrase her, i tweeted: Six months for Driscoll does not represent later in life, give him another ten or twenty years. Plus Driscoll has to be way cheaper than Judah Smith or Carl Lentz, the current kings of radical chic. it sounds like you have a story of sorts. Church Discipline James River Church's 2020 Christmas service. We live in a youtube world where fun and funny trump all. If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. The hyper romanticized cinematic version of the uber cool Che trumps the reality of his bloody terrorist tactics and the horrors and oppression that his brand of communism inflicted on others. sheep are watching and wolves coming. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. He is a draw. A large percentage of modern evangelical mega-churchianity is beyond comprehenshion. God, I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire?. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/, http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts, http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308, http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21, http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/, http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. Associating with Driscoll might make them feel younger and edgy. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. I believe in forgiveness, but cautious about putting such folks back on the platform. The last time Robert Morris met and greeted anyone as part of his service he still had his braces/retainer on. Its meant only to address the deception of certain megas. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. As the CEO of MHC was MD completely unaware of what was going on with the Global Fund? Posted by NancyAlcorn at 1:06 PM 2 comments. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. hee hee. The he takes him back to Antioch where they work together for a year with converted Gentiles. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight. *carefully targeting pastors who want to build an empire of their own with an easy publicity stunt (although described Christian-like so it actually sounds noble, in both marketing and in the buying pastors self-talk), @ LT: Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community Certainly, Fulgencio Batista (dictator of Cuba at the time of the communist takeover) was a very corrupt man, whose government did terrible things, as with Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, and many others. one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. I think many. Youre right. So where is the money coming from now? Did he have liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE(TM) he was (chuckle chuckle)? An online petition calling for Mr Driscoll to be removed from Hillsong's conferences had attracted more than 3000 signatures prior toMr Houston's statement. . You would think that over a decade of Manly Man, sexist, dude-bro, preachers that people have had enough, the novelty has worn off, and theyre ready to get real about Church and the faith again? luke was paul's dr and paul was luke's pastor. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. This one was different. Wonder what else is in the Acts29 playbook that we havent seen yet! Why dont Driscoll and the boyz just get it over with and rename their religion Paulianity? How can a reasonable person look past that? This is not a measure of faith. The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. We saw a good deal of quick forgiveness/cheap grace from defenders of TVC. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. James River Church Online - Christian Church - Springfield, MO Working at James River Church: 40 Reviews - Indeed Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. Then I would take notice that there might be something to their repentance. Silly me! "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". OT but of interest: the former pastor of a megachurch in Richmond, VA goes on trial tomorrow on charges of sexually abusing two minors in Texas some years ago. Youre not one of us. His style appealed to the carnal nature of 21st century Christians he gave them what they wanted and they loved it so. He fails all or almost all the qualifications laid out for that role as outlined in the New Testament. He can be forgiven. OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. Im not kidding. Mark Driscoll, thepreacher who stepped down from his Seattle megachurch in October 2014after being accusedof plagiarism, bullying and an unhealthy ego has beentrying to returnto some kind of speaking tourat Christian conferences. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. How can they do that? I recently ran into Scott Thomas and asked him about his promise to never abandon our orphans. He was no longer at Mars Hill Church and was himself suffering a level of abuse from the Mars Hill Church leadership. In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. "It is possible for someone who has been a life-long alcoholic to stop. Its appalling that through your words and actions you are able to re-injure the real victims with such ease all while smiling and chuckling on your stage. He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. Reverend Mark Driscoll has sinned before many witness, this had been profusely and laboriously documented, and is to be rebuked before all. His behaviour has been SO egregious, that I believe that he needs to stay out of anything that offers him a place of leadership or authority. @ Bob M: There are plenty of people within the Christian faith that have their own issues with mega churches but people outside of it especially do. And every Wednesay at 7pm! My point with Che is to draw a parallel. Mars Hill Church was ending its relationship to Agathos. No special event meet and greet for high dollar donors. To learn more, visit ja. It seems like the big megas tend to adopt or embrace some of the sleazier or ungodly aspects of other churches verses the more positive programs like community services. @ LT: District. Or alcoholics working in a bar. We saw the Dallas Morning News drop TVC story like it had Ebola germs on it despite knowing that parents were not being warned of a pedophile in their midst. They stirred up the people now the mob is forming. Not much time has passed since he stepped down. Hillsongsfounder, Brian Houston, released a statement saying he did not want the 30-minute interview with Driscoll to distract from the larger five-day conference. Lindell then got personal with me. At some point, with enough outcry and rage from outside, they may hopefully see it as you did looking up at that 3 x 5 card on your bulletin. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. Some guys I knew in Tucson called this shining the Stupid Ray on people.. . "I do not think, frankly, it is a matter of your business or Mr. Lindell's business or even my wife's business," Stephens told me. Excellent comment! Some great insights there, Bob. was paul asking for forgiveness? I agree that if the object is to fill seats and keep the money flowing in, then Driscoll and the others are doing a great job. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. After surrendering more than 10% of your gross income for years you are tens of thousands of dollars into them at that point and that can really bolster all the cognitive dissonance you feel and strangely work to prevent your leaving. I hope you found some of the above helpful. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books, Theyre having new revelations from heaven haha i mean from the internet blogs that they cant escape. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? Hey Sam you may be interested in how Jews interpret the Mashiach (messiah) passages. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. Whatever is going through Marks head, he is bent on getting people to listen to him again and to be heard. @Albuquerque Blue stephen doesnt blameshift, doesnt lose his temper, stays calm. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. It is certainly understandable we would see it differently. Elders thatthat sin are to be rebuke before all, that others also may fear. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? Actually, they have as much as said that there is a good root (their doctrines/practices that accidentally produced some bad fruit. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. Reveal the conspiracy please. so many for so long have used caring for others while taking funding from orphans, politicians treating everyone equally and standing by the christian forefathers etc that it actually means nothing anymore. But in America, (to quote HUG) its all about the Benjamins, baby. All the more reason that Driscoll appears arrogant and pompous to me and doesnt at all seem to understand the damage hes caused. Im really glad that you are reaching out to GW and other exiles. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. Some of it probably is. How far can a pastor go in preaching the gospel when it comes to a political issue? I recently had coffee with a staunch Mark Driscoll supporter who has chided any criticism of Mark Driscoll and strongly challenged me for every apparent infraction of the last year, yet at the same time vigorously excused or defended every one of Driscolls mistakes. The supporter said some awful things about me and Agathos, particularly its misuse of funds. he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. In his case, [Pauls] trust had to be earned, for obvious reasons. At a certain level they wanted leaderless teams who would function by consensus. They secretly instigated men who said here come the false charges. one passenger died. . If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. How can a reasonable person look past that? But I did find this on the IRS website: A tax-exempt organization "may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.". I do hope that nobody is still saying these same things before they clean up their own act. People think that Christians want filled pews and big churches, most do, i strongly disagree with that. "This ordinance reduces freedom of religion to freedom of worship," he said. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. Does it lie with Driscoll/Chandler or does it lie with the people whom they want to trust them? An awful lot of people are having to do the exact same thing. ", Meanwhile, here's what was communicated 'Down Under' "Houston, we have a problem.". Here are just some of the phrases he uses as he shares the story. They sing and wave their arms and hug and praise other givers. (Not that I waiting with bated breath). In Driscolls case he didnt even offer up the grudging apology specifically for the lives he ruined, the corruption, or the abuse of those at Mars Hill. Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. I call that tragic because there are still a lot of honest pastors and churches out there. Lindell's sermon is further entwined with politics because he mentions Springfield Mayor Bob Stephens. You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. when the pastor first says, his humility he almost breaks out laughing (cause maybe he knows how stupid it is to say that). I dont think he is qualified to lead any church or ministry of any size until he exhibits the fruit of the Spirit for a long, long time. Think of it as telling a kid how special they are every day and giving them a trophy daily. John Lindell, pastor of James River Church, represents a new breed of reformed Assembly of God pastors yes Calvinism in the Assembly of God! They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. Blech!! ++++++++++++++++. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. That does not even mention the eradication of those who did not agree and his cognitive dissonance concerning Hiroshima and working to bring USSR Nuclear missles in Cuba claiming it would be good to use them on Imperialist American. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters, he said, and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.. It was dingy and old. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. 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Every week seems to get more strange and more openly cult like. . I will post about this. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. I know you are already familiar with it but for anyone else not familiar, it was written in the context of David and Saul. If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing.